Comments on: Dies the Fire, by S.M. Stirling

by: Jim Young

Sun, 26 Aug 2007 05:01:04 +0000

I think that you would have to agree that if a book was written from that perspective (ie. Christian), assuming it could get published, it would not be sold as SciFi/Fantasy but as a Christian novel which is in another section of the book store.
I think that miracles by anybody’s definition are pretty thin on the ground. (A good source for some more modern day miracles is “A Table in the Presence” by Carey H. Cash.) I also agree that “But though they may be obvious to the few who’ve seen them, they often don’t travel well.” This is true even in church circles.
Stirling’s comments outside of the literary work itself don’t really matter to the situation. The event was of some “supernatural power” that favored Lady Juniper and in the same battle the Christian “not-so-good guy” (I can’t really say that Stirling set him up as a true bad guy because he was on the side of right in this situation) buys the farm. You are left with a definite compare and contrast situation. This would be more easily accepted as legend from the scene if the situation were told in the third person from another observer’s viewpoint.
All this is really not to say that Stirling doesn’t have the right to do whatever in his stories. Most other authors do. Just given how the history plays out with the development of the communities it didn’t seem necessary. The mantle of victory can be very convincing to people, especially to people in a crisis situation, which is pretty much everybody in the “Dies the Fire” scenario. I really did like the story. It reminds me of a short story that I read year’s ago where aliens did the Change thing and then revisited many years later and humans had developed muscle powered weapons and tactics to unheard of levels. I don’t know who wrote and haven’t had the time to find it in my many anthologies. It could be the one referred to in a couple of reviews of the book.

by: Will Duquette

Sat, 25 Aug 2007 15:14:36 +0000

I’m not sure the comparison with Mulan is fair; it’s effectively presented as a fairy tale, and the Ancestors and Moo-Shu are played for comic effect anyway. And Pocahontas I’ve made it a point not to watch, as it would only have annoyed me.

I’m not sure I’d agree about it being bad form to include a Christian miracle in a book, either. It’s just that historically, out-and-out incredibly obvious to the meanest observer Christian miracles have been scarce on the ground over the last few centuries. I’m not saying there have been no miracles, far from it. But though they may be obvious to the few who’ve seen them, they often don’t travel well. That makes it harder to include one believably; and in any event, deus ex machina is to be avoided regardless of the deus involved.

Finally, I’m not sure that you can make the case that a “real miracle” occurs among the Wiccans. Certainly Lady Juniper senses something unusual and seems transformed–ridden is perhaps the right word–on occasion, but the cause is unclear. I seem to recall Stirling dropping some hints about that; all may not be as it seems.

by: Jim Young

Sat, 25 Aug 2007 06:00:07 +0000

Actually it has been a while since I read them. Trying to get a copy of the Meeting at Corvallis. When I get that I will reread the whole trilogy. If I remember correctly the people in Lord Bear’s group (while incredibly cool in a knight errant sort of way) would be hard to categorize as “devout.” Nominal would probaby be a better category. I am trying to remember the people in England it does strike a chord but memory fades. My main point is that if you remove the battle miracle in the first book you still have a solid sociological understanding for the growth of Wiccan religion (?) in Lady Juniper’s territory and surrounding sympathetic territories. By adding the “my religion has real miracles thereby is credible” seems to be gilding the lily at best and seems to become “religious sales talk”
Now having said that I firmly believe the miracles recorded in Scripture but if I were writing a book with a Christian main character and I included a divine miracle/intervention in a battle or any other situation it would be considered bad form, but its “cool” when another religion is given “powers” (e.g. Mulan, Pocahantas (of course that is Disney but this is shown in school bah)).

by: Will Duquette

Thu, 23 Aug 2007 14:19:05 +0000

I agree about the nasty preacher; but Stirling has a way of not conforming to stereotypes. The later books feature a number (in England, a large number of devout Catholics, for example. And aren’t some of Lord Bear’s people Catholic as well?

by: Jim Young

Thu, 23 Aug 2007 07:26:25 +0000

I have to agree with you that the presentation of Wicca as the alternate religion bothered me. Not because I don’t think that people would abandon whatever faith they felt failed them with the Change, because one can make a pretty good case that the Black Death led to the Reformation because the religion of the time failed to offer explanation and comfort to those afflicted with great suffering. The idea that a leader of an “alternate” religion causing people to convert, even convert fairly rapidly, because of their military economic or in this case survival success is not to hard to swallow. The part that is difficult is that Christians who make up a great majority of the country and even assuming that only maybe a quarter or a third of them are “true-believers” then they would still outnumber Wiccans about 1000 to 1. These Christians are portrayed with one character who of course sounds a lot like the preacher from Footloose. The other issue that seems to always crop in books and films is that Christianity is always a faith in things unseen. (which of course is true in a certain fashion) And that the alternate religion actually can perform miracles such as Lady Juniper in the battle that finishes off our nasty preacher at the same time. That’s just my quick thoughts late at night. I know it’s not very timely but what the heck.

by: Cathy

Thu, 14 Dec 2006 00:00:34 +0000

I’ve read Dies The Fire and I’m now in the middle of reading The Protector’s War. I was sufficiantly disturbed by the idea of the world ending not by nuclear war(which for years everyone has believed would happen) but by the disruption of modern technology, that I had nightmares after considering how much the loss of 200 year old technology would impact my life.
What would I do without my tv to entertain me in the evenings? The running water that comes with my nightly bubble bath not to mention the microwave that heats/cooks my convient ready to eat meals. What about the convient refridgerator that hold all that extra food that I’ve bought in the anticipation that I might want to eat later?
As to growing my own food, I can’t stand to be near anything with more than four legs so a garden with the myriad of insects both beneficial and not is out of the question.
All of that convience would disappear with the disappearance of technology and I’m sure that I would not be the only one who had no idea how to produce enough garden food to sustain me through one season let alone a whole year.
I never thought about how the pioneers survived and thrived on homesteads and had to produce everything themselves from food and water, to butchering livestock to making their own tools and clothing.
Then there is the fact that after the Change, you can’t call 911 if your home is attacked by the bandits and Eaters roaming the countryside.
I took martial arts classes years ago, but I wouldn’t know the first thing about making a plan to defend my little piece of land.
And last, even though I can’t cook worth a darn, I want to know the recipe for Everlasting Stew. I can’t imagine what would go in it and how it could last for any length of time.
Seriously, I wonder about how so many people who were people would drop Christianity and adopt a religion so different in such a short amount of time.
I’m going to finish The Protector’s War and wait until Meeting In Corvalis comes out in paperback. I can’t wait to see what happens next.

by: Will Duquette

Sat, 18 Nov 2006 00:20:47 +0000

It’s my blog, mate. If you don’t like “religious sales talks”, you needn’t read it.

As for my definition of “mainstream”, yes, I’m American, and geographically my primary concern here is American society and culture and the changes I see in it. Frankly, it would be “insulting” for me to pretend to write authoritatively about social change anywhere else in the world. If you find that insulting, I’m afraid you need some insensitivity training.

As for your comments about the word of God being distorted by men simply shows your lack of faith in God’s omnipotence. If He’s God, and He wants his will to be known to us, don’t you think He’s capable of keeping it free of distortion?

Anyway, you’re rather late to this particular party; this has all been hashed out in later posts. (Click the trackback, if you care.)

by: Dan

Fri, 17 Nov 2006 04:21:52 +0000

Keep the religious sales talk out of your blogs mate.

You said “But they are, at best, misled–and as teachers, at best misleading.”

Oh please, I wouldnt go commenting about the word of God given that his words have been so heavily distorted by men for so long that we have lost the truth part of it a long time ago. Your insulting defintion of what is maintream tells me even without checking that you are American. Very few other peoples would have the ignorence to believe that their way is the only right way. There are 1.2 billion people who follow Islam and 837 million Hindus on this planet (thats the bits on the map outside the USA). Ask them what is mainstream.

A large premise to this book is how the tables turn in so many ways. Those skills which were considered less meaningful have become essential. The farmer is now top of the rung again. And the same goes for religion. Wiccan religion from what he is explaining, without a doubt would have more appeal and appropriateness than anything concocted by the men who shaped Christianity. Face facts buddy. He is spot on.

by: The View From The Foothills » Blog Archive » Truth or Consequences

Sun, 13 Aug 2006 03:36:39 +0000

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